Deadline: White House : MSNBCW : July 2, 2024 1:00pm-3:00pm PDT : Free Borrow & Streaming : Internet Archive (2024)

where 15 ambulances were standing by. injured passengers treated and taken to a nearby hospital. the airplane said they sent another plane to get passengers to their destinations ultimately in uruguay. in may we had a singapore airlines flight make an emergency landing in bangkok after hitting severe turbulence. dozens injured. one man died of a cardiac event. researchers say the turbulence is becoming more severe as climate change heats up the planet. the jet stream said to be 15% stronger than it was in the 1970s and significant turbulence happening about 5500 times each year. the jet stream is more volatile and difficult to predict. back to you. >> great news to end on. that's going to do it for me today. "deadline white house" starts

right now. hi there, everyone. it's 4:00 in the east. the decision by the supreme court that now after yesterday american presidents can legally function as kings is a clarifying moment for everyone and what friend of the show sarah longwell describes as the single largest voting coalition in american politics, and that would be the antitrump voters. now the dangers of a second trump term loom larger than at any other moment that has come before this now that the super majority on the supreme court has made it clear and made it official that the judiciary will not stand in the way of donald trump's autocratic intentions. and the plans by trump and his allies are not rumors, they're not innuendos, they're not left wing delusions, not even based on pulitzer prize winning investigative reporting. the conversations happening behind closed doors. they're out in the public. they're laid out for everyone to see. trump's promise to weaponize the

justice department and the justice system is broadcast nearly daily by trump himself. just hours before the court's ruling in trump versus the united states trump called for more than one dozen of his critics to be imprisoned. on that the "times" reports he circ cue lated on sunday singled out liz cheney and called for her to be prosecuted by a type of military court reserved for enemy combatants and war criminals. a separate post was 15 former and current elected officials that said in all matters, they should be going to jail on monday, not mr. bannon. it included mr. biden, ms. harris, mr. pence, mr. schumer, mr. mcconnell, the top leaders in the senate and representative nancy pelosi, the former house speaker. now, to really get our arms around how much more power a re-elected return be to the white house donald trump would have to act on those tweets and

those threats, we only have to look back to what he tried to do in his first term. his first term he was largely stopped or slowed by his own white house attorneys. we know that back in 2018 his white house counsel at the time don mcgann had to dissuade trump from having don mcgahn and hillary clinton. don mcgahn rebuffed the president. mcgahn said that could prompt accusations of abuse of power. mcgahn had white house lawyers write a memo for mr. trump warming if he asked law enforcement to investigate, he could face a range of consequences, including possible impeachment. white house attorneys stood in the way from the january 6th

hearings it sounds like physically at some point to block trump's coup attempt. they warned of the legal perils should trump barrel ahead. now consider how he woke up today, not just feeling empowered but being empowered and how he would feel if re-elected knowing the six conservative justices on the supreme court, three of whom he hand picked, have ruled that presidents have, quote, absolute immunity for anything deemed a core constitutional function and the presumption of immunity for anything else that can be deemed an official act. the one expert telling the washington post this, quote, if a future president sitting in the oval office were to want to commit crimes up to and including subverting an election or remaining in power against the will of the american people, this opinion, in my mind, could provide a roadmap for that. yesterday's decision by the supreme court leaves the american people with only one

option. we're down to one option, guys. no one's coming to save us, and that is this, imposing political accountability for the man who tried to overturn the election and now seeks to wreck the pillars of our democracy. here's how president joe biden put it last night. >> the american people have to render judgment about donald trump's behavior. the american people must decide whether donald trump's assault on our democracy on january 6th makes him unfit for public office and the highest office in the land. the american people must decide if trump's embrace of violence to preserve his power is acceptable. perhaps most importantly, american people must decide if they want to entrust the president once again, the presidency to donald trump, now knowing he'll be even more emboldened to do whatever he pleases whenever he wants to do it. >> what the supreme court's ruling on immunity means for the choice between democracy and

autocracy facing every voter in this country in the 2024 presidential election is where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. national investigative reporter, caroline is back with us. msnbc legal analyst barbara mcquade is here. former republican congressman david daley is back with us. a lot of this is your body of reporting you wrote. a lot of this is ground we covered on this show as it was happening, but when you re-examine trump's affinity for criminal acts and his constant sort of cognizance of the power of the pardon for himself and the people he was asking to engage in conduct, that even he had this reptilian sense to where he might be criminal, how do you sort of re-evaluate some of the most -- some of the biggest crises you covered in light of the supreme court decision? >> nicole, i'm so glad you hark

jeeped back to some of that reporting, both by the "times" and the washington post and myself and phil, because to me there were moments where donald trump was looking to protect himself despite his own instincts about what he wanted to do. he listened to don mcgahn, his white house counsel, even though he was pounding the table at the time in frustration when he wanted to have jim comey, his former fbi investigator investigated and imprisoned. when he wanted hillary clinton, one of his nemeses, investigated and hopefully in his view investigated and convicted in a trial. it seems to me that all of those guardrails that we talked about as being at least a delaying mechanism or in some cases an actual stop, those are now lifted entirely. the immunity decision by the 6-3 decision of the supreme court basically says that the burden is dramatically on the

prosecutor to show how these are not official acts. the president back in former trump, back in 2019 and 2020 wanted to accomplish some things at the border, in addition to weaponizing his justice department, which he also sought to do but held back from, he also wanted to show how tough he was on the border. and when his secretary of homeland security said what you're asking me to do is illegal, i cannot bar people from seeking asylum in this country, the president's reaction was, well, i'll just pardon you. go ahead and do it. now those people did not want to face criminal liability. they'll have less arguing with donald trump in the future. they'll have less opportunity to say this is criminal because it's an open question, if the president wants to achieve something, including hanging on to power, showing he's tough, taking out a rival that he believes or can argue is a national security threat, who's

going to stop him exactly? what threat faces him? and what argument can his secretaries of defense, homeland security or justice make to him? there's very little left. >> you know, i was also thinking of all of the fantastic reporting about the period around the protests after the murder of george floyd, and some of the most incredible things that came out were about defense secretary mark asper and mark millie pushing back. some of the backstops against trump's instincts were things were -- the military leaders were saying we wouldn't follow an illegal order. this recasts what is an illegal order if a president has absolute immunity for criminal acts he deems official? >> yes. as justice jackson asked in oral

arguments, and sotomayor as well, well, couldn't s.e.a.l. team 6 be instructed by the president on his argument that it's protective of national security to execute a rival? what would stop that exactly? and let's be clear, nicole, you've brought a real spotlight to this. donald trump has said former chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, mark millie, who rebutted and blocked trump from some of his worst instincts in his final year of the presidency when he was trying to hold power, trying to use the military to that end, trump has said that millie would normally face potential execution for his quote, unquote treason. now that all sounds insane, right, to anybody who understands the rule of law, but that's been donald trump's argument. if he can say i now as the newly re-elected 46th president of the

united states believe that the former chairman is a danger and a threat to this country, so how is that not an official act if he commands s.e.a.l. team 6 to do it? >> i also want to retread some history with you, barbara mcquade. this is out today in the washington post. former nixon white house counsel john dean said monday that had the court's ruling been in force in the early 1970s, history could have turned out very differently. as i looked at it, i realized richard nixon would have had a pass, because the evidence against him was based on official acts the supreme court has deemed immune from prosecution. this is a fork in the road for everyone in this country, everyone who if they knew much about or they knew a lot or a

little about the constitution, they knew one of the values was about the rule of law. one person is, the american president. >> the supreme court interprets the constitution. what they're saying is this is what the founding fathers meant when they wrote this 200 years ago. it wasn't the understanding during the watergate era. as you know, nicole, a big part of the case was the allegations that richard nixon had ordered the cia to try to dissuade the fbi from investigating the burglary at the watergate building. that is absolutely an official act. under today's standard, the opinion decided yesterday, not only could president nixon not have been charged for that order, you couldn't even use that as evidence. and so it really calls into question the consistency between yesterday's decision and the u.s. versus nixon case where the tapes were ordered to be turned over. if nixon couldn't be charged

with a crime, then how can you force him to turn over evidence of a crime that cannot be prosecuted? it really does i think put into stark relief just how questionable yesterday's decision really is. you know, one of my least favorite portions of the opinion is where chief justice roberts accuses the dissenters of engaging in fear-mongering pointing out that as the dissenters do, that someone could order s.e.a.l. team 6 to assassinate a rival, accept a bribe in exchange for the pardon, but what he never says is it's not true. he just says these are extreme hypotheticals, but today really there is nothing that would mean that a president would be charged with a crime if he were to engage in that behavior, and i think the watergate example really brings home what a stark difference this is in our understanding of how the constitution has worked for these 200 some years. >> you know, david jolly, a lot of people that i know and people that i don't, beloved viewers of this program, i saw people

expressing fear. >> yes. >> i am afraid of what the court ushered in, but my colleague rachel maddow, as she is beloved for what she does, cut to the crux of this. let me play that for you right now. >> the rule of law is supposed to con strain the ruler, and the supreme court just undid that, and it's binding. and it's now the way our country is structured, and the only way out of this, the only fix to this, there is no fix to this that involves impeaching supreme court justices, no fix that involves a new argument or new case, the only fix to this is to put someone in the white house from here on out who will not abuse the absolutely tyrannical power they have just been granted in perpetuity. >> do you agree with that? what december that mean? >> yeah, barb talked about the

founders and it doesn't include someone who would be willing to engage in truly unlawful behavior, occupying what appeared to be an office much great honor. i think where the chief justice got it wrong, rachel gets it right, it is plausible to imagine these scenarios. i as an attorney coming down for those who followed the live breaking news, i'm more in the chuck rosenberg camp that this might not be as drastic as it seems because unlawful behavior is still unlawful behavior? i think what chief justice roberts was saying is if a president ordered s.e.a.l. team 6 to engage in an assassination, that's unlawful and remains unlawful. however, where critics like barb and rachel and others are right to point out is, it might be unlawful, but under yesterday's ruling there is no evidence you could enter into as a prosecutor that says the president engaged in this type of behavior because of that small portion of the

decision that says, any behavior that's determined to be part of an official act, we're seeing it in new york today where trump's lawyer said any communication, even if it was to michael cohen, about a p*rn star or about -- about behavior that occurred before the presidency, any communication of donald trump as president is in the outer shadows of the office and can't be used as evidence, that's the most restrictive part of this decision that would suggest a bad actor could engage in unlawful behavior as president and actually get away with it. that is the hardest part to reconcile here, and i think it's what you heard joe biden say last night. as he said, he would never abuse this office, but donald trump certainly would and be that makes november that much more important. >> well, i ran into chuck rosenberg yesterday and i said my only thought or reaction to that analysis is that we have someone with a blueprint for doing things that are illegal that's running as a criminal. i mean, trump has a record, as

carol and other investigative journalists chronicled, of recoiling against people at doj who he didn't view as loyal to him. he fires comey because he doesn't see to it to let mike flynn go. he makes sessions cry because he recuses from the russia case. what is he afraid of in all of these interactions? criminal scrutiny. that's it. the whole ball game. he hands out pardons to people he wants to commit crimes for him or who did retroactively. i guess s.e.a.l. team 6, i don't find it particularly farfetched since they were chanting hang mike pence and he cheered them on but, i mean, the reporting that i asked carol about where he wanted the insurrection act invoked, that was to use any means necessary to suppress protests after the murder of george floyd. i feel like the thoughtful legal analysis almost doesn't recognize the brazen and public nature of trump's extra judicial ambitions. >> nicole, you're exactly right

about something because of this. you mentioned in the lead an example and carol's reporting is that don mcgahn stopped donald trump from doing that. rudy giuliani will be the next type of white house counsel who will not put the brakes on a president trump. >> caroline, i want to give you the last words. what do you make of the politics? white house briefing was described as a feeding frenzy. i didn't catch it. the supreme court unmoored and donald trump seeming to evade accountability at every turn. >> in one respect, nicole, this is exactly what i expected the supreme court ruling would be with a few small nuanced differences, but absolute

immunity from official acts was what i was watching to come down the train track. and yet seeing it today and yesterday aligned with president biden's faltering appearance in the debates, watching people call for him to step down or at least remove himself from this race. at the same time donald trump, who showed himself to not treat the office with any reverence or real focused concern on his duty to the public and to the constitution, seeing all these things circle at the same time is worrisome. as a young journalist one of the things that i remember my mentors teaching me over and over again was, you know, when you're reporting on public officials, what you're trying to figure out is your bar is not they engaged in a crime, your bar for reporting important stories is are they meeting the

high standards that we expect? for public officials who have served the public? and right now it feels as though a lot of our institutions are so below that bar. >> yeah. >> we are writing and reporting on things that are momentous and disturbing and it's so far afield from my early days of holding people to account of the highest possible standard. we have a president right now who's struggling to show that he can lead for another four years. we have an incoming front-runner for re-election who is planning to wage war against his enemies, against anyone who's disloyal to him, not the standard for serving the public and the constitution that i was trained to report on from the earliest days. >> it's an extraordinary perspective, and i feel like we

could do a whole hour how the whole window has moved. we used to cover who's best, who's better than the best. we are certainly looking at something that voters feel is pretty different. carol, barbara mcquade, david jolly sticks around. more on the supreme court's dangerous ruling and what it says about the future of presidential power. we'll be joined by a member of president biden's white house counsel's office just ahead. plus, an attempt by the ex-president to test just how far above the law he really is this morning. he woke up and asked if the ruling means his 34 count felony conviction in new york could be thrown away? the judge in the case with the surprising decision on that late this afternoon. and later in the broadcast, the alarm bells are going off as we learned more about the ultra conservative figures working with donald trump to sketch out a policy plan to reshape the federal government should he prevail in the november election. it's called project 2025 and

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book your move today at pods.com . it really is difficult to overstate what a dangerous precedent they have set, how they have essentially unshackled the presidency to commit crimes. the court really without mincing words has told the american people a president of the united states is fully authorized to commit a crime. it is as simple as that. i am generally an optimistic

person. it is a dangerous precedent that will haunt us. i won't be surprised if the roberts court is termed the infamous roberts court. >> let's bring in ian sounds with us outside the white house. thank you for joining us today. >> thanks for having me, nicole. >> just tell me in your view, sort of speaking on behalf of the people whose job it is, to be the lawyers not just for the president but for the office of the presidency. what is your view and what is their view of the impact of yesterday's decision? >> well, as the president spoke to last night, it sets a truly dangerous precedent for our country's future and the president came out and spoke so forcefully because he feels deeply, passionately that this was the wrong decision. just like we've seen wrong decisions in recent years on

fundamental freedoms of americans when roe was turned over. this is a watershed moment. the president put it clearly when he talked about the wisdom, character and judgment that is necessary to sit in the most powerful office in the land. these are things i think we overlook sometimes when we talk about politics and the presidential politics. i think that people need to think hard about the type of person who sits in that chair every day. and for three years now we've seen the president display extraordinary wisdom, judgment and character when making consequential decisions about how to use his power. what has he used his power for? he's used his power to eliminate student debt for millions of americans. these are things he does with his power. those are the things presidents should do with their power, and what we do every day and what i have a front row seat to the amazing professionals in the counsel's office, we make sure the president is using that power for good for the american

people. president biden said last night, you know, people don't have to worry about him abusing this power. people know that he has the wisdom, character and judgment to do this job the right way. he's done it for the last 3 1/2 years but he's also alarmed for our democracy that the courts would say that that's the only constraint that exists on a president's power is just hoping you have someone who has the character, wisdom and judgment to do the job. you know, that is an alarming shift from the court and it's something he felt really passionately about speaking out about. >> i mean, ian, it's a point my colleague made last night. no one picked up the decision yesterday and worried about anything president biden would do. all the coverage was about what it meant for trump. how does that message get out to every last voter when it's sort of wrapped in this -- i mean, i -- at the beginning of the process i had to study up on

presidential immunity. >> this is part of why the president felt so strongly yesterday when he was coming back from camp david. i have to speak to this. i have to tell the country how i feel about this and explain what's at stake for a democracy right now in this moment. we've come out on shows like yours and talked about it. i'm sure content trickles across the internet, but we have to keep pushing that message over and over and over again so the american people can understand that this is a president who over the last 3 and a half years has demonstrated the right wisdom, right judgment, right character when the toughest pressure of the most powerful office in the land is on you. that's the kind of person that he is. i think people lose this a little bit when they think about the president. you know, we get wrapped up in the news of the day, but at the end of the day for 3 1/2 years this president has sat in the hardest job in the land and displayed the kind of wisdom you want from a president. when it comes to the issues

they're making tough decisions on, he's not making decisions about himself, he's making decisions about how to help the american people with his power, how to get them better access to health care, how to expand their voting rights, how to protect them from gun violence. these are the kinds of decisions he has to make about how to use his power. those are the decisions he has been making so when people think about how this decision impacts them and their daily lives, you have to think about how someone with the most power in the world is using the authority that they have, using the power that they have. with president biden, as you've seen for the last 3 1/2 years, he's used his power to try to make progress for the american people, to try to help their lives get better. that's how he uses his power and no one has to worry about that. >> yeah. i mean, look, it's a word people used to use about conservative justices, i think you're describing restraint. listen, you brought up news of the day so i'm just going to go there. about an hour ago "the new york times" moved a story that starts

this way, you're all living it so you probably know it better than i do. quote, in the weeks and month before president biden's politically devastating performance, several current and former officials and others encountered him behind closed doors noticed that he increasingly appeared listless or would lose the thread of conversations. have you heard any accounts like that or witnessed that? >> no. i've got to say that doesn't look anything like the president that i know. when i deal with him, he's sharp. he's asking tough questions and he's speaking i think maybe most importantly, speaking passionately about what matters to him. yesterday when he gives the speech about what the supreme court did, he's -- he drove that speech. he was at camp david and he came back earlier so that he could speak to the american people about just how strongly he feels about this decision and how wrong it was. that's the president biden that so many of us experience every single day. someone who's asking the tough questions so that we as staff can be sharp to do our job best for the american people and to help him make the best decisions

for the american people and how he's executing, like we talked about during this segment, the powers of the presidency. that's the president biden we experienced. he admitted last week he had a bad night. he said in his remarks on friday, you know, he doesn't speak as smoothly as he used to but, you know, the important thing is about the decisions the president makes and how you do your job. the best predictor of how a president is going to be president is based on what the president has done. you think about the way he's displayed extremely strong wisdom and judgment over the last 3 1/2 years. you think of the way he's brought the world together against autocratic threats around the world. those are the things be that he has brought to the oval office to help restore american lead jr.ship and to try to help, you know, bring some normalcy back to this country. >> you don't have to persuade me. i sat across from him exactly a year ago, i think it was a year ago on friday, but could you

acknowledge that there is a crisis, a political crisis among some of your own allies on capitol hill, at least one democratic lawmaker calling for him to step aside, not for any of the reasons you've said. i think anyone agrees he's governed not just effectively but in a historically successful manner. i saw what you described when i sat across from him on my own set. it was an honor and privilege but there is something -- there is great concern politically among your own allies after last thursday's debate. is that something you are helping to contend with or can acknowledge? >> well, i just want to say, working for the white house counsel's office, i'm smart enough to understand there's something called the hatch act. >> fair enough. fair enough. >> i want to be careful not to talk about the politics. what i can say more broadly is the president this week is going to sit down with george stephanopoulos for an interview. the whole thing will air this weekend. he's talking to members of

congress. he's talking to governors. he went and did an event about the extreme weather the country is seeing. he's going to do the medal ceremony tomorrow. the president is going to continue talking to people, explaining to the country the job he's doing as president, the things that motivate him, drive him every day. the president will be out there. he's going to talk to people and he's going to listen to them and he's going to explain the job he's doing as president and why he's the right person with the right character, wisdom and judgment for the job. >> i appreciate that. i think our viewers do as well and i appreciate you being here today. you are always welcome. i'd be happy to have this conversation with you any day you'd like. thank you very much for joining us today and fielding our questions. >> thank you. david jolly, let me bring you into the conversation. i mean, i've been a white house adviser. i don't know that you can ask much more from especially someone on the white house side. and it is also true that there is a -- i mean, i read to him

from the story, a pretty deeply reported story with four by lines and six sources explaining -- >> sure. >> -- some things that are troubling not because they don't happen to just about anybody, especially anybody 81 years old, but because when stitched together with what the whole country saw last thursday, they create concern not about the ability to govern but around the ability to prevail on november 2nd. >> yeah, nicole, look, there is a political crisis, there is no question about that. i think everybody saw last thursday, but i think the question is in the days since has the white house staff or campaign staff done what it takes to heal that crisis and the answer is no. to suggest that it was just a bad debate night falls flat with millions of americans who say, no, that wasn't a bad debate night, that was something else, but i don't know what it was because i don't have enough information. was it simply an age-related moment? was it a fitness moment? or was there something else? and for the campaign staff or

the white house to say, no, no, you didn't see anything, just breathe through your nose and settle down and vote for us, that's falling flat. the one person who can get this -- this white house back on steady ground is joe biden himself, by doing what he suggested he do. do the sitdown with stephanopoulos, let the american people see the strength and ability to govern. the questions that came out last week are simple to compartmentalize. is joe biden able to be president and govern? absolutely he is. the look at his success at home and abroad. ability to restore credibility to the white house and our national standing on the world stage. he can absolutely govern right now. can he govern for the next four years? the most impactful statement since thursday was not from staff, it was from joe biden. he said, trust me. i wouldn't ask you to support me for the next four years if i didn't think i could do it. that's the joe biden the american people want to see. now can he win in november? that's a campaign question for

democrats to figure out. is joe biden our guy still going into november that can stop trumpism? he did it once, that's their case. or is there another candidate? i'm not a democrat. i don't have a voice. the white house staff wants you to think, put your head down and go for it. the only advice i would offer is the biden coalition is not just democratic super voters who will follow you in lock step with that strategy of just put your head down. the biden coalition includes a lot of americans who haven't performed as democrats until '18, '20, '22, they want the reason to stay with biden in '24. i suspect you'll hear biden make that with stephanopoulos and other appearances. >> the supreme court seems to try to help him. republicans ran campaigns against the supreme court. joe biden could be run being against the supreme court. they're completely out of control. he's not planning anything radical to alienate the biden

coalition. are you going to pack the court? no way. never. >> yeah. >> there's something so unique about not just temperamentally moderate but politically moderate. i understand where everyone's coming from. i'm a never trumper so i will vote for whomever the coalition -- i'm sort of a guest in the house is how i feel personally and it pains me when you and i are disrespecting this president. we turn into the other side if we don't tell the truth about what we see and hear. i had a white house official tell me i'm not going to spin what you saw with your own eyes and heard with your own ears. i am wondering how you are sort of thinking through these difficult days? >> yeah. because you went there, and i agree, look, i'm not a democrat. i don't know your affiliation. i don't have a voice in who's the nominee. there is a large part of the biden coalition with unanswered

questions today and the democratic dam pain operatives ignore that part of the coalition to their own peril, but they want a reason to stick with joe biden. they are people that would never vote for donald trump, but coming out of thursday, it was not a bad debate, it was as nancy pelosi said, it was an episode. jim clyburn realized his time has come to step back. the question is for the american people, is our president serving today, our president capable and fit and able to be our president for four more zbleers if the answer to that question is yes, not simply because we hate trump but because we care about the capabilities of the chief exengtive of the united states of america, if he is capable, that coalition stands and joe biden beats donald trump. if you tell that coalition, just vote for joe biden and put your head in the sand, you're going to lose this race. they're losing it now by sending out that message.

this can be corrected. joe biden's the man that can do it and i expect he will. >> me, too. me, too. i'm looking forward to see him with george, who's a pro. all right. david jolly, thank you for keeping it real. >> thank you. >> i don't know what else we do at this point. i really appreciate you. more fallout from the supreme court's historically terrifying immunity ruling yesterday. donald trump moving to have his guilty conviction in new york thrown out starting with next week's sentencing hearing which has been delayed until the fall. we'll talk about what the judge can do next in the case when we come back. the promise of our constitution and the hope that liberty and justice is for all people. but here's the truth. attacks on our constitutional rights, yours and mine are greater than they've ever been. the right for all to vote. reproductive rights. the rights of immigrant families.

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so picture this scene, in february of 2017, one month into his presidency, i'm visiting president trump in the oval office for the first time and it's truly awe inspiring. he's showing me all around and pointing to different paintings, and he says to me something to the effect of, don't worry, michael, your january and february reimbursem*nt checks are coming. they were fedexed from new york and it takes a while for that to get through the white house system. as he promised, i received the first check for the reimbursem*nt of $70,000 not long thereafter.

>> who among us is surprised that after yesterday the ex-president is now building a case to argue that his new found complete immunity means he cannot be convicted for criminal conduct that took place while he was sitting on a chair in the oval office? like the thing he did that michael describes here, writing checks for reimbursem*nts for hush money paid to an adult film actress and then concealing them, lying about them as legal expenses, the thing he was convicted of 34 felony counts for. well, having some success this afternoon the judge agreed to delay donald trump's scheduling that was scheduled for next thursday in the manhattan case until at the earliest september 18th, which would now put it after the republican national convention and the democratic national convention and it would land about a month and a half before the presidential election. donald trump's lawyers asked for time to file a motion to get his

34 count guilty verdict thrown out citing the supreme court's ruling on presidential immunity. it would be an argument, prosecutors say without merit, that in the meantime has clearly set up another delay in trump's pre-election legal challenges. joining our conversation, suzanne crag and msnbc legal analyst and a deputy division chief christy greenberg is about. suzanne crag, it seems like a million lifetimes ago that we sat together at 4. you felt like when the supreme court handed down absolute immunity for president trump, it was a case brought by president trump, that everything had changed. when i saw the news this morning about the new york case, it is clear that that is also trump's view, that everything has changed. >> right. and, you know, the hush money case where he's now facing a sentencing, most of it involved his conduct in 2016 prior to him

taking office. but there were a number of things that happened at the white house that are now going to come under a new light. and i think like everybody today, i made a list of all of those things. i probably didn't get them all, but there was a lot of conduct that did spill over into the white house. you played the tape of michael cohen, and that was one where the checks were signed and they had a discussion about the checks coming. you know, that was just one. and the other one i think was really important was that conversation that he had with hope hicks where they were talking about michael cohen and the payment and donald trump said, well, it's better it comes out now than prior to the election, and that was a conversation that happened at the white house. some other ones i wrote down, there were tweets involving michael cohen. there was call logs. there was conversations that he had in the white house. there's speeches. there was a public disclosure form that he had to make where he disclosed the payment to

michael cohen, and then there was that famous april 2018 press conference right aboard air force one where he denied knowing about the $130,000 payment to stormy daniels. i'm sure i have missed some, and i don't think -- we don't know, i guess, but you can't imagine all of these are going to fall under official conduct, but i can assure you that donald trump's lawyers made the same lists and are going to be going through it and are going to be making from their point of view a very strong case to the judge that a lot of this should fall under official conduct and that the verdict should be set a zblied you know, christy, i've said on this show that i really -- if i had known i was going to cover someone like donald trump, i would have sought to obtain a law degree in some manner, but tell me how it -- i mean, i know all those things -- i know where they happened, but how is it anything

official, to have sex in tahoe with stormy dan yems and then engage in collusion with david pecker and then pay michael cohen fake, falsely accounted monies to keep stormy daniels quiet? which part of the conduct is official? >> so none of what you just said would be considered official. i completely agree with you, but i do think as sue was going through that list, that is -- that is a list where at least some of those acts could be considered official. the one that i focused on was the same one sue mentioned, the witness testimony with hope hicks when she was the white house communications director. they were talking about how it is, for example, the stormy daniels story was playing. under this opinion from the supreme court, they could say that that discussion between donald trump, then president, and his adviser constitutes an official act and use of any

evidence pertaining to an official act, even though the charges are completely related to unofficial acts, any use of evidence should not have been admitted at this trial. you're going to see the prosecutors and donald trump's lawyers going through each of these potential acts, whether they're official or not, with a fine tooth comb. and then if they are official acts and they shouldn't have been admitted, then the question becomes, well, how important was this evidence? was it really significant? like that hope hicks testimony, that moment was significant but was it cumulative? for example, we heard similar testimony from david pecker saying that he had a conversation with donald trump about the fact that he was happy that the karen mcdougall story didn't come out he had a conversation with donald trump about the fact he was happy the karen mcdougal story came out. that's arguably not official. so you're going to look at these

are they official acts and if they are, did they make or break the case or was there so much evidence in this case that that is not something you can point to and say we throw out the whole thing. so given just how much strong evidence they had, i really don't think this is going to change the game, but it is going to take some time and the judge and the parties are going to be really combing through this record carefully to see if there's any evidence that would make a difference. >> sue, it is an extraordinary delay. everything about the calendar this year is extraordinary. it's been rescheduled for mid september. do you have any sense or reporting that that holds or does that feel pretty loosely placed on the calendar? >> i just think we don't know. something could bump it again. this is now we're getting into justice delay territory. i didn't think the july 11th

date was going to move. i don't think we know, but it is significant because whatever happens, this is the first criminal conviction of a former president. that sentencing was going to go ahead next week. and now it's moved into september. just weeks before this immensely consequential election and it could get moved again. we just don't know. it's going to be a crazy fall. i think we're going to be talking a lot. >> it's going to be a crazy fall. i feel like that should be the t-shirt and that's all that we should wear. suzanne, christie. it is a pleasure to see your faces again. thank you so much. we have to work in a quick break. don't go anywhere. we'll be right back. break. don't go anywhere. we'll be right back.

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it's tuesday. there's more bad news for rudy giuliani, the disgraced new york city mayor and trump ally. he was officially disbarred in the state of new york today after his law license was suspended in 2021 for his role in spreading lies about the 2020 election on behalf of donald trump. the appellate court writing this, quote, the seriousness of giuliani's misconduct cannot be overstated. he not only deliberately violated some of the most liberal tenants of the profession but contributed to the strike that followed the 20 to election for which he is

unrepennant. he is an unindicted coconspirator in jack smith's case. he owes millions to ruby freeman and shaye moss. he had his radio show canceled after being suspended for continuing to lie. up next, project 2025 is not a game. the growing warnings about what republican extremists are planning should donald trump prevail in the election. much more news to come. don't go anywhere. election. much more news to come don't go anywhere.

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time for us to play chess, not checkers. it's about making decisions that will affect us as human beings. our careers. our next generations to come. did you know that it is now a crime to be homeless? pay attention. it's not a secret. look it up. they are attacking our most vulnerable citizens. the project 2025 plan is not a game. look it up! >> i love that she did that. hi, again, everybody. it's 5:00 in the east. no, it's not a game and this is not a drill. project 2025 is their plan. it is serious. it's in writing, it's public. it is a chilling approach to running our federal government that got all the more chilling after the supreme court granted donald trump absolute immunity. it's the plan that trump would implement on day one should he

prevail in the november election and end up back in the oval office. that was taraji henson. a full scale reimagining of our entire system of government and who runs it in donald trump's image and vision. the mission statement for project 2025 is a plan assembled by the heritage foundation. sounds like something you would read on the ex-president's truth social feed and there's no evidence to rebut that's where it came from. quote, it is not enough for conservatives to win elections. if we are going to rescue the country from the grip of the radical left, we need both a governing agenda and the right people in place ready to carry this agenda out on day one of the next administration. axios has new reporting writing

this, quote. trump promises an imperial presidency. one that would turn the justice department against critics, deport millions illegally, slap 10% tariffs on thousands of products. fire perhaps tens of thousands of government staff deemed loyal. he'd stretch the powers of the presidency in ways not seen in our lifetime. he says this consistently and clearly so it is not conjecture. a few other headlines from the 900 plus page mandate. putting christianity at the center of american life and government. criminalizing the mailing of abortion medication, the most common form of abortion care. criminalizing sending that through the mail. taking the word abortion out of all laws, policies, and regulations as well as terms relating to gender and sexual identity. removing protections for the environment. denying climate change. eliminating the department of education. as the new republic called it a few months back, quote, a

remarkably detailed guide to turning the united states into a fascist paradise. and now after yesterday's seismic ruling from the supreme court that an american president has immunity for all official acts, there is legally, legally no limit to what trump will do and can do. it's where we start at the hour. every day as long as there's news to share on this front with our favorite experts and friends. amanda carpenter. president of media matters for america is here. former deputy national security adviser under president obama, ben rhodes. and democratic strategist and professor at columbia university. amanda, i start with you. it's taken the media a minute. we're behind the great taraji p. henson. i think the supreme court decision has focused the minds

of the media, i hope. we're going to try to get through a lot of it. it's about 600 pages long, but tell us what you first sort of seized upon? i know you've been looking at project 2025 for a long time. >> yeah, i have. i also think it's important to show how it's directly tied to the trump campaign agenda because i think it's almost too easy for trump to dismiss it by saying that's an outside group. what i did through my work was put together this resource called the authoritarian playbook 2025. that talks through the systemic ways trump campaign agenda overlaps with project 2025 in ways that would dismantle our democracy. that sounds really exaggerated but it is not. so we went through and really tried to explain in a factual, no nonsense way about how this

goes down. we've divided it up to several areas. the first has to do with how trump will consolidate power against his enemies. there's a lot of material, policy wise, that project 2025 agenda lays out how they will systemically do that. that allows his loyalists, putting the tariffs against his enemies. things he really experimented with in his first term. so that's where things, these purges of civil service come into play because they're going to need a lot of people to do that and project 2025 has a big resource base. probably the most alarming things have to do with consolidation of power at the military. we're talking about federal law enforcement overreach. when trump says something that he thinks shoplifters should be shot on the spot then policy

wise, he promised to indemnify law enforcement that overreaches so they cannot be held accountable. you talk about the domestic deployment of the military. he's shown he has a penchant to abuse in the ways he's already pardoned his political loyalists and allies. this adds up in the end game is that they don't leap. because once you consolidate all this power, you can't give it up. that's where this always goes. if people want to check it out, we really did our best to display it in a factual way. if you look at project 2025, it's a lot to go through. let's look at what this intersects get really focused on the ways our democracy are being threatened because that's the quickest way we can get through solutions in terms of putting more guardrails in place when it comes to congress. i think we've learned from this process we can't keep banking

everything on the next election and presidency. people have to get to work and get creative now. >> what is the solution? other than making sure donald trump is never president again? >> for starters, we've seen the slide of scotus slide in the presidency for quite some time and obviously, this immunity is a wake up call. i think this is going to be a time for democrats in congress to really get smart and savvy about reigning in executive power before it's too late. i understand that legislation probably can't be passed now, but this is a good time to start building the case for it instead of freaking out about what's going to happen to the presidency, use the power that you have now to build that message. to talk to people. to get solutions. because i don't want to come off as lectures as like a republican saying democrats need to do more, but it is my feeling now that maga is on the rise. just simply because they're outworking everybody on a lot of

fronts. yes, the courts have let us down. the republican party has let us down, but they are not stopping. so i think we need a lot less panicking and a lot more working. >> yeah. ben, there is this thing. i described it to david in the last hour as i am a guest in the democratic coalition. i don't plan on leaving. i'm like the house guest that won't leave. but there is this sense that republicans with the most malevolent and malignant leader and the most rotten set of enablers have done too much damage. i mean, who is the democratic leonard leo? who is writing the pro democracy project 2020. i actually asked five people, got five different answers. one is the constitution. two is white house.gov. who is sitting in the quarterback chair to give joe biden's pro democracy agenda its marching orders to try to push back against what is malevolent

and malignant are the only words i can come up with to describe trump's plan for a second term. >> i think you're right to focus on the question. i just want to make one point about project 2025. it builds on your point about parties, which is sometimes we make the mistake of just thinking this is just trump. and trump's going to come in and somehow eliminate from his own interest. when we look at the supreme court decision, that's the result of decades of court backing by the far right and a relentless focus on courts such that we really have no solution right now in the near term for dealing with a 6-3 majority that is changing the constitution before our eyes. so i think first of all we have to make a change. think about this. it's not just trump. trump obviously is the most corrosive force in the party itself, but he's connecting with the worst elements in the party that have been building this for some time. and we've seen this as we've talked about. in terms of who's pushing back,

i would point to the necessity of taking action not just at the federal level. because you put out your last question. if trump wins in both houses of congress, we'd be dealing with an out of control president and a supreme court given a blank check. some of the fortification you have to do and some of the groundwork you have to do is at the local and state level. this has been the case in other countries to create antibodies resistant to terrorism. some of the more innovative policy work on democracy and solutions that matter to peoples' lives are happening across the country. in the first trump presidency, his decision to take climate change, one of the examples from project 2025, his decision to pull out of the paris agreement did not have that big of an impact because a lot of the states, california leading them, you know, built their own guardrails around the federal government to undo their actions. so i think part of what the

democratic party needs to do is not just have a top down thing where we're waiting for the next presidential election every four years, although we have to do that particularly the next few months. but we need to be building from the bottom up in the same way the republican party has. what are we doing at city levels, state levels, town levels? grass roots mobilization. the democratic party has a lot of infrastructure. i've been a part of it. it's not always connected. sometimes it's disconnected. there's an environmental movement. there's a need for reproductive freedom. a move for lgbt rights. this needs to be woven together the same way the right wing has. we need that collective effort. not just for this election. it's going to take a generation just to undo what's already been done. never mind if trump ever gets back in there again. >> ben, as you were explaining that to me, i think i know why. the republican project is about power and a corrupt pursuit of power, which is very unifying that the democratic project, i

don't even think democrats see it that way, is around these benevolent causes. amanda and i were in the republican party. we just debated on how to keep the water clean. trump said it, the water will be the cleanest water ever. he had not one policy to make water clean. water doesn't just become clean because you say it so. i think you're getting at the structural underpinning and the lack of any coordinated political response to what is a complete hostile takeover. not just of institutions in the court, but of the very democracy. is it too late? >> it can't be too late. i think we are too late. in the sense that this has been going on for a long time now and we've been trying to beat it back in every election, every two years. but i do think in recent years, again, from the bottom up. but also with the kind of people getting elected to office. the kind of people who were in

their 40s and 30s who get into elected office. just to build on what i was saying before about how the party functions. it tends to be a collection of different interest groups, right? who are understandably focused on the issue they care about. the republican party can focus on power. the koch brothers did this where they would gather a bunch of donors and they'd say don't donate to the issues you care about. let's pool this together and use it to win power then the things you care about are going to be taken care of on the back end. i think democrats need to mobilize collectively in that fashion so we realize winning elections across the country and building support of pipelines for the kinds of policies that defend democracy and the kind of groups being targeted like project 2025 is what is so essential here. it's going to take not just the kind of playbook the democratic party has using the last 30

years, it takes in new mindset. where the moment of truth is now first in this election, but then in realizing just how deep the hole is we're in. that supreme court decision pointed out the depth of all that we are in because that's a 6-3 majority that's likely to be with us for a while. so it's going just going to take the next election. it's going to take organization in the long-term. >> angela, i know you've been looking at project 2025. why do you think it's taken the media so long to focus on it? it's all right there out in the open. these plans, they're extrajudicial. an extraordinary abuse of power. they're the sorts of things that the trump's first white house lawyers would have warned him against doing and they're all here on the website in black and white. >> i think two reasons. one is that it's so big. it's hard in the media. you have to identify what's the story. it's a short segment. there are few programs and shows and outlets that will delve into that kind of complexity.

then i think the second part is like is it the internalization that it's a real threat. because the right wing, your previous conversation. they've been doing this forever. they've been doing this for decades. they always organize and coordinate and collaborate and their institutions do that. they always sort of have these plans. in the first trump administration, the heritage foundation said that 64% of all of the policies the trump administration put into effect in their first year were the work of just the heritage foundation alone. part of it is that is this different. i think now with the supreme court decision, it's provided a lens to say wait a minute -- some of it seems -- >> i lost you. i need you to say that part again. after the supreme court decision. i agree with you. i think the supreme court decision is this window to focus everybody on what exactly they said. how radical it is. everything they said before yesterday was to quote bill barr

bullsh*t. no respect for president. no respect for things they said in their own hearings. they also couldn't give a single example of any president that had ever been reigned in from what they described as bold things. and yet, they gave this ex-president absolute immunity. >> that's exactly, to me, that is the focal point. is that it provides a lens for the media, the public to say wait a minute. these plans which seemed fantastic, illegal, maybe the checks or guardrails we thought behind in place that would make them to make it no longer fuel for right wing media, but actually become something we all deal with. it seems more likely now as a result of that supreme court decision because what they basically did was take away at best a lot of assumptions peope had. even mitch mcconnell had the assumption because when he said i'm not supporting impeachment here, there's a criminal justice system that could take care of

donald trump if he had done illegal stuff in the last few weeks of the election. what that supreme court decision did at best, put aside whether there's new law and the implications, it took away the assumption that many people had about one of the few last remaining guardrails. the significance of this election ties in this moment, this is the first election in 30 years where rush limbaugh is not the single largest get out the vote operation in this country. so when we talk about all the institutional power and organization that happened on the right, we can't disconnect that from the fact they've been pumping poison into the information ecosystem for decades and building generations of individuals that are not just going to take an application and repeat misinformation, but feel they have an obligation to act on it. being called and what that decision does is call that question. >> you know, basil, ruth said something really important yesterday. she said that despair and

helplessness are two vital tools for the autocrat. that what they need is for people to feel that all is lost. to feel helpless. i always ask experts, are you still optimistic, and they say what ben just said. i can't be. or i am. i can't feel despair and hopelessness. i have to be optimistic. one, are you optimistic and two, where do you derive it from if you are? >> that's a great question because in the last few days with all this conversation post debate, i've been very angry. and i've tried not to let that anger turn into frustration and worry. but the reality is it has. i talked to friends and colleagues and they have similar

concerns which is why i was so thankful to see taraji at the b.e.t. awards to call project 2025, to call it out for what it is. it was the biggest night for the culture and to speak to the culture about threats to that culture. in realtime. i think was extraordinary because it came off a day when donald trump talked about black jobs. it's not just the slip of the tongue. jobs focused on servitude bereft of intelligence because that's not who he thinks we are. so our black job is actually civic engangment. that's what gives me hope. seeing people who perhaps never would have taken the position they did on a stage like that in public like that, all of a sudden turning around and saying no, i've got to speak out about this. and the urgency is critical. because as everybody's talked about project 2025, the point i

feel really does need to be hammered home is that it is an agency by agency instruction booklet for donald trump if he were to ever get to office and it's not a ten-year plan. it is a 180-day plan. 180 days. not enough time to throw up a protest. not enough time to legislate. not enough time to take something to court. it is designed as a steam roler so donald trump can do everything he wants to do thanks to the supreme court on day one. what we should be talking to each other about is not just about an existential threat to our children and grandchildren. it's what are you going to do in the next six months because come january, if donald trump is president, our lives will change radically and i need us to all be on the same page about that. i'll say this very quickly about ben's points related to the

party because it keeps me up at night. for a decade or more, a lot of individuals have actually run against the democratic party. not really fully embracing it. but against it. and have started many organizations that are well meaning and do really good work. perhaps really innovative work, but to his points, a lot of it is not stitched together. and when you convince a lot of voters the party is not responsive to you, they therefore are not going to use the party as a vehicle for the political and economic that i saw it for when i got involved 30 plus years ago. when you combine that with the decline of religiousty. places we used to congregate like churches that are closing down in new york city. that civic engagement in many ways has been demock ratized because of social media. there is now this increased need to make sure we are in the room

talking to each other, sharing our plans, and setting a course forward because as i said, this is not a ten-year plan that the heritage foundation is creating the foundation for. it's not a plan that the business community is flocking around trump to fund. it's 180 days starting in january. >> well, i've been, i've been sifting through it since thursday myself. and you guys have given me my first super dose of hope for a long time and we will for our part, turnover. we've got lots of time. we don't look for two-minute segments. they're not long enough. we need 20-minute segments. i have to sneak in a break, but we'll try to do some of that work here. much more to get to. i want to show you what trump's own person in charge of the people is saying about how this would work and look like should trump prevail in november. plus, lordy, there are more

tapes. many more tapes and we've got them. we'll play them for you later in the broadcast. all thanks to the journalist who sat down with the disgraced, convicted ex-president half a dozen times after he lost re-election. he's back with those never before heard clips and audio tapes, including why trump, in his imagination, thinks he actually won the new york civil fraud trial. which he lost bigly. deadline white house continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. ouse continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere.

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being able to actually work in the environment and experience doesn't matter quite as much because there's a lot of junior roles as well and sometimes, experience is bad, but it's more about just being able to do the job and the number one thing, actually, to see a job through is not caving to media pressure. because if you're in an important role, they are going to come after you. it's only a matter of time. >> we're back. i've watched that a few times. every time i see it, i fight with myself over what the most startling thing is that he says. i used to think it was loyalty is more important than experience because experience can be bad, but this time, the way i heard his point about media is more believe what you see, but not hear. we need people who can stay the course even if the press is covering the policy is extrajudicial. what do you understand from looking at this plan from what he is saying? >> a lot of the mythology that

project 2025 is based on is that trump was stymied by this deep state that was out to get him from day one of his presidency. if you look at the specific cases where they think trump was saab technologied or the deep state lashed out against him, what you see are republican, hand picked appointees who told him no for some reason. some policy area because they believed it would violate the constitution or go against their own oaths of office. we're talking about when he asked if he could shoot people at the border and department of homeland security official says no. when he leaned on the department of justice to drum up a sham investigation so that he could stay in power and bill barr said no. we're talking about when he held up aid for ukraine. and people in congress started saying where did the aid for ukraine go? and people started looking into it. so those are the problems. problems i put in air quotes

that project 2025 seeks to solve by vetting people not for expertise, but for loyalty to the president. this whole project rests on the idea that we have to get rid of the deep state that was out to get him, but also when donald trump says i have article two power to do what i want, they're finding a way to make that true. hand in hand with the supreme court. that is why they're so laser focused by these things like schedule app which would allow the president to unilaterally reclassify thousands of federal workers to get them out so they could get their loyalist, nonexpert people in, who essentially will never tell the president no. that's what this all rests upon. >> and the supreme court figures in, ben rhodes, because the court yesterday reaffirmed the absolute nature of his pardon power and his absolute immunity for official acts, which is how they would couch all of this. and the other thing that pulls the supreme court into this story in a pretty central way is

that the gentleman in the clip, his name is john mcentee, one of the people who gave him a list of names was ginny thomas. so it is all on the right a single project. >> yeah. we have to see it that way. if you think that the supreme court and what they've been doing the last few years, they have basically taken the position they're there to serve the interests of donald trump and the right wing republican party and they are no longer in any way playing the role that the supreme court has at times played in american history where they're kind of a last guardrail for rights as individuals. when i hear that clip, you know what i think about when he talks about media, i think about the separation of families. you have trump trying to institute a policy separating children from their families at the border and you had a huge media backlash to that. and people in the administration kind of backed off that time. i actually think that's what he's referring to because what we know is trump is going to

come first as the b.e.t. clip made the point. he's going to come first for vulnerable people. so if you try to envision a scenario not that far from now, less than a year from now, where he's trying to put millions of people in this country into camps or he's trying to mass deport people, including people who have been here for decades whose children were born here, who's spouses live here. there will be a media backlash. what i hear him saying is we need people in here who are not going to get rattled if there's wall to wall media coverage. we've got the supreme court. we know the supreme court's not going to stand in the way of something like a mass deportation scheme. the last thing we need is just people willing to sit there and put up with a lot of people in the media getting very outraged about what's happened. that's what they want to do. and again, they'll start with vulnerable people who don't have protections anymore. but come for anybody. and if he's able to do this also

at the intelligence community level and military level, well, then, we're talking about generational damage done to the american state and the extension of his personal interest with no check from the supreme court in ways that you know, are going to bring up scenarios we can't envision. general milley, he probably didn't like the media backlash when they marched across lafayette square. people who have no shame. they cannot be shamed out of doing the things donald trump wants them to do and they won't be stopped by the supreme court. >> this conversation won't be stopped either. i find it wildly optimistic that you envision media backlash. that's a set of assumptions i'm going to cling to. at least tonight.

to be continued. consider yourselves on notice. we need you for this. when we come back, another batch of very revealing audio tapes of the convicted felon, ex-president talking to variety. he's back with more clips for us. never before been heard, of donald trump in his own very troubling, very bizarre words. it's next. his own very troubling, very bizarre words. it's next. i'm officially done switching. (vo) new and existing customers get iphone 15 on us when they trade in any iphone. verizon but st. jude has gotten us through it. st. jude is hope for every child diagnosed with cancer because the research is being shared all over the world.

it's hard to articulate this

but let's try this. it's a side of donald trump that is different from the one he projects out into the public. to the world. a version, if you will, of the convicted felon, disgraced ex-president. same bluster. same rapid fire lies. but even less varnished, if that makes sense. we're talking about what trump is like away from the crowds and in front of a journalist and tape recorder when his filter is limited as it is, dissolves completely. and it's not just what he says but how he says it. over the past few weeks, author, journalist, ramine, has been sharing with us remarkable new never heard before recordings from a half a dozen interviews he did with the disgraced president after he lost. like this one. tapes that cut to the very core of what donald trump really actually is.

>> if i went back to nbc right now to do something, they would do anything i wanted to do. showbiz wise i'm talking about. doing a show, anything i wanted to do. 100%. because one i think i know about that business and i learned more about that business than anyone can learn in a short period of time. it's about one thing. ratings. if you have ratings, you can be the meanest, most horrible human being in the world. there's only one thing that matters. ratings. you can be evil, horrible, cruel, or elegant. there's only one thing that matters and that's ratings. if you don't have ratings, it doesn't matter. >> the word elegant in his vocabulary is the part that i can never unhear. let's bring in now the aftermentioned journalist, variety editor and chief author of apprentice in wonderland, how donald trump and mark burnett

took america through the looking glass. it's so great to have you back, to listen to more of these tapes. the book is amazing. the interviews on which the book is based still just stun. take me inside of these clips. >> thank you so much for all your support for my book. the clip that we just heard was actually in a conversation that we had on november 13th of last year. it was the day that donald trump's sister died. i was at mar-a-lago with him and i was talking to him about whether or not nbc, there was a path for him to go back to the apprentice on nbc. he argued that there was. and what was interesting, because my look looks at him through the lens of tv, is that he continued to pose this hypothetical and sense that he was somehow being wooed to come back to tv eve though i found no evidence of that. that's the tv star in him. he wants people to see him as a tv star. a successful tv star and that's

the philosophy and way in which he views the world and the way he governs, if you could call it governing. >> what's amazing is there's no evidence that that's ever been true. and news max, which is more distopian, more foxy than fox, runs trump with a disclaimer. why, where in his brain does he think that nbc is secretly, privately pursuing him for a new show? >> he views the world through the lens of being renewed. because the apprentice was such a successful show, it was in the early seasons, but not in the later seasons, that somehow nbc has this beef with him and they're upset that because he ran for president, he stopped being host of the apprentice. >> let me play this tape. set this up for me. this is him attacking the judge in the civil fraud trial. tell us a little bit about what

we're about to hear. >> on this day, there was a lot going on. his sister had passed away but also, don jr. had resumed to take the stand in the civil fraud trial where he was talking about how wonderful his father is and how great his father is at business and in the middle of our conversation, donald trump received a phone call where he asked for a directed verdict then tried to offer his own analysis of what was happening in new york while he was in florida. >> let's listen. >> let me give it a shot, okay. all right. so they just finished up the trial. we won everything. we have a judge who just doesn't want to let it go. he's crazy. i don't know if you're liberal or not, but this guy is a radical left -- >> very liberal. he's not a supporter of yours. >> he's a political hack. >> yeah. >> he's a real hack. when you look at him. he should have never had the case in the first place. he got it. very dangerous system. you know what i mean. it's very dangerous. the good news is we're killing

him. he's getting horrible publicity. >> i saw that. >> the thing with his weight lifting. he's crazy. he's a [ bleep ] lunatic and he doesn't want to let it go. >> he's talking about judge angoran. he lost everything. >> no verdict had been announced so it was very confusing when he told me he'd won because clearly, the trial was still ongoing. but i think in his head, again, looking through the prism of reality tv, everything is about headlines and being able to spin the press. so these negative stories that appeared about the judge, which i think he may probably have had something to do with, or someone on his team had something to do with that had been leaked about the weight lifting, trump seemed to know what had been written about the judge. he thought he was winning because the judge had bad publicity and donald trump was rejoicing over that. he was excited about that.

>> let me play what he had to say about this very network, msnbc. >> but at the top, they're very bad people. because they're very dishonest. msdnc is a very dishonest show, right? msnbc. i just call it. deface the nation. i have good names. deface. defaced. they go [ bleep ] when i say it. but anyway. i thought that nbc would be to me like nobody else. like nobody else. and they're absolutely atrocious. especially through msnbc. and the reason is that i made them a fortune. people have said that if i didn't come along with the, they had no top ten shows. no anything. they were dying. jeff zucker, i made that guy. he got lucky. >> this is so revealing and so

disturbing on every level. explain. >> it is because donald trump lives in this delusional world in which he is the star. the a list star and the center of the universe. one of the things that was so disturbing to me watching the debate on thursday was because of joe biden's performance, we didn't get to see the real donald trump. he retreated, kind of held back. trump is very skilled. he's gone to the board room and when someone is self-imploding, and i could see it in donald trump's eyes. he could see he didn't need to do much so he held back and we didn't get to see the real donald trump. but i have spent a lot of time with the former president and this is who he is. he lives in a fantasy land. he thinks he's the biggest star in the world and he thinks nbc needs him. he does think he's a king. not a politician that has to play by the rules like everyone else. >> what -- it's fascinating debate analysis. some of the most astute that i've heard. what do you think he thinks happened at the supreme court yesterday?

>> i think he thinks he has a free pass to do whatever he wants and what's so scary about this is that in the time i spent with him, he has so many feuds. not just hillary clinton and jim comey. it's deborah messing. arnold schwarzenegger. he's constantly fighting in his head with people he feels betrayed him. >> ramin, we thank you. it's an incredibly enlightening and illuminating series of interviews. the book is called apprentice in wonderland. truly must read. ahead, one of the star witnesses to come out of donald trump's hush money trial. stormy daniels in an exclusive sit-down interview with my friend and colleague speaking out for the first time about what scares her now that the trial is over. very first look at that new interview is next. very first look at that new

interview is next. mommy, what do you love to do? (chuckling) i love to be your mom. ( ♪♪ )

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hi, i'm gina. please join i've tried so many things to lose weight. none of it worked. i would quit after a few days or a week at the most. golo is not like any of those. with golo and release i not only met my goal i've surpassed it. and i'm keeping it off. thanks to the john roberts, donald trump has been list of p very real enemies. that list is, as we said, lengthy. it would be hard to list everyone who's on it, but near the top of the list are those people who were involved in helping to secure the guilty

count on all 34 of those felonies he was charged with in new york and the election interference hush money trial. they include key trial witness stormy daniels who was at the other end who received the hush money payments. in her first u.s. interview since trump's guilty verdict, stormy daniels sat down with my colleague rachel maddow and talked about what she's faced in the face of the conviction. it's not just potential revenge but violent threats for her role in holding trump accountable. here's some of that brand-new exclusive interview. >> when the gag order was in place, did you benefit from that at all? are you worried about it being lifted? >> no. i mean, he's going to say what he's going to say yearn way. >> yeah. >> i'm not afraid of what he could say about me or what he could call me. i'm telling the truth. i'm the only one that has continued to tell the truth. i can prove everything that i've

ever said so i'm not concerned about those things he might say. >> yeah. >> i'm concerned of him saying something that will make his followers come after me more. >> has that changed over time, that character of the way people have come after you? >> oh, yeah. >> how has it changed over time? >> the biggest thing is they are not hiding. they used to all be bots. now they're using their real staff. there's facebook threads from people in my own community planning to do things to my house and my family. >> disturbing, vitally important and you can watch the whole thing. rachel's exclusive whole interview with stormy daniels tonight at 9 p.m. during a special two hour edition of the "rachel maddow show" right here on msnbc. we'll be right back.

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civil rights act into law, the most important piece of civil rights legislation since prohibiting discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex, and national origin. in a statement celebrating this anniversary today president joe biden says, quote, it is still the task of our time to build a democracy where every american is treated with dignity and has an equal opportunity to follow their dreams. we must continue to move forward together, stand with one another, and choose democracy over autocracy and beloved community over chaos. we must choose to be believers, dreamers and doers. isn't that nice? thank you for letting us into our homes. "the beat" starts after a very short break. don't go anywhere. stay with us. (man) switching all the time... it wasn't easy. (lady) 35.

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